Review: "Between Heaven and Earth (2002)"

On this episode of Salty Believer Unscripted, Bryan Catherman and Josiah Walker discuss the LDS-produced video, “Between Heaven and Earth.” They were invited to tour the Layton Temple of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints (LDS) in Layton, Utah. Prior to the tour, their Mormon guides asked them to watch the Mormon-produced video, “Between Heaven and Earth,” which can be found on YouTube. "Between Heaven and Earth" is a Mormon argument for the need and value of modern-day temples. By interviewing LDS theologians along with a loose Jewish studies instructor and an theological-liberal Harvard dean, Mormons make their unconvincing case for earthly temples built by man’s hands, and attempt to connect those temples to Christianity and the Christian Bible. The guys watched the video and then discussed it in this episode of Salty Believer Unscripted. Listen to Salty Believer Unscripted wherever you get podcasts, or listen here:

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Inside a Mormon Temple

In this episode of Salty Believer Unscripted, Josiah Walker and Bryan Catherman share their thoughts after touring the new Mormon Temple in Layton, Utah. These temples are an aspect of worship as part of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints (LDS). Are thy biblical? What’s it like inside these temples? Should Christians even go on these tours? The guys answer these and other questions after their VIP dedication tour of the new LDS tour in Layton, Utah. Listen to this episode of Salty Believer Unscripted wherever you get podcasts, or listen here:

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When I Unfriended Everyone

Bryan Catherman | Utah.

Social media is porta-john. I've considered closing or canceling my profiles for some time. I typically feel more isolated after the scroll of death, and frankly, feeding the machine the diamond bits grind down society is exhausting. No longer is there anything social about it. It's as toxic as an improperly vented furnace, killing us in our sleep.

But rather than jump off the ride entirely, I decided to turn Facebook and Instagram into a personal experiment. (I would have included Twitter, but I stopped using that when it divorced me and became my X.) I went to work unfriending everyone. Almost everyone. I chopped 1,200 contacts down to 164. How mixed up am I that clicking the "unfriend" button felt like I was terminating genuine relationships that started and exist outside the internet? Has Meta rewired my brain that far?

I am determined to use the two apps--Facebook and Instagram--to strengthen and foster current real-life interactions. There was no reason to keep old high-school connections I have not heard from since we first connected on social media. Why remain attached to past co-workers I never see or talk with? If I didn't want to answer a phone call from someone, why would I stay connected with that person in these apps? Some of the profile-severing was challenging, but I am still connected via email and phone numbers; Facebook would no longer be a tool for those relationships. It's not like I disconnected from my acquaintances in the real world, just in the apps.

I stayed connected with my faith family, with whom I'm in covenant membership. We worship God together. I also stayed tied to my biological family through blood, adoption, or marriage. And there was a tiny bunch I regularly text, call, or connect with in other ways--actual friends as we had before the internet. There are also some ministry folks I'm actively working with in one way or another. Finally, there is a small group I simply find joy in following, like a Greek professor and a griddle guy. I did the same thing with the pages I follow. If they didn't bring help or joy, I stopped following them. Few remained.

What happened?

In the apps, nothing. That was the shocking part. I still saw the same handful of connections intermixed with excessive ads, sponsored posts, and "suggested for you" garbage. The machine kept showing me what it wanted me to see. Nothing changed. Nothing.

But in my soul, so much! I don't have that strange feeling that I'm missing something and must frequently check the apps. I'm not comparing my private life to everyone else's public life. Friends' posts only come alongside real life because I'm also connected outside of the apps. The number of "likes" means nothing because out of my 164 connections, only 4 or 5 were probably on the app today. I feel free. Resistance is not futile! I am not Borg.

Something else happened. The time I spent feeling crappy on the apps stopped. Now, I spend far less time gazing at a meaningless screen. Sure, there's a few minutes here and there, and then it's over quicker than it started. My time is rapidly becoming more productive. I'm reading more, from physical pages in books that smell nice. I'm seeing the world with my own eyes rather than through the eyes of the machine, and I see that the world is beautiful.

Also, I don't pull out a camera and point it at my face while sitting on the toilet. Don't judge me; I'm sure you stare at your phone (with that camera staring back at you) while you sit on the can, too. I've stopped. There's no need. And if for no other reason, that's a good reason to kill the social media addiction. It's gross.

My attitude is shifting, and joy is coming back. All it took was getting real about how a social media app changed the way I thought about relationships. I had to stop letting Facebook tell me I had to be anchored to past or unmeaningful relationships at the cost of those in the real world, in real life. I had to remember what being a social human means again. It turns out it's pretty good.

As a Christian, my identity and joy must be rooted in Christ, yet social media was becoming an assault on my identity and joy. This move was one of a few steps to change that.

Revelation: Pergamum and Sardis

Join Josiah Walker and Bryan Catherman as they continue in their discussion through the book of Revelation. In this episode, they discuss the letter to Pergamum (Revelation 2:12-17) and the letter to Sardis (Revelation 3:1-6). They are still trying to determine if these letters form a chiasm. They note the connections between these two letters but more so the connections back to the Old Testament.

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Revelation: Smyrna and Philadelphia

Join Josiah Walker and Bryan Catherman as they continue in our series through the book of Revelation. In this episode, the topic of discussion is the letter to Smyrna (Revelation 2:8-11) and the letter to Philadelphia (Revelation 3:7-13). They are still looking to see if indeed these seven letters are a chiasm. What do these letters bring to the bigger picture? How should we understand them today? Listen to this episode wherever you get podcasts or listen here:

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Revelation: Ephesus and Laodicea

Josiah Walker and Bryan Catherman discuss Revelation 2:1-7 and Revelation 3:14-22 which are Jesus’ letters to Ephesus and Laodicea, respectively. Are there connections between these that may lead us to see a chiasm here? Or are these not connected in a chiasm? What is a chiasm? What is the meaning of these letters? Are there things here we can learn from for our churches today? They answer these and other questions in this episode of Salty Believer Unscripted. Listen to this episode of Salty Believer Unscripted wherever you listen to podcasts or listen here:

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The Seven Letters of Revelation

In this episode of Salty Believer Unscripted, Josiah Walker and Bryan Catherman discuss Revelation 2 &3, commonly called the Seven Letters to Seven Churches. What are these letters about? What’s the background? Are these future, past, or something else? Are these seven letters to churches today, or just to Ephesus, Smyrna, Pergamum, Thyatira, Sardis, Philadelphia, and Laodicea? Are these seven letters a chiasm? This episode deals with these questions and additional introductory material. Before we get into the individual letters, it’s helpful to see all the seven letters together. Listen wherever you get your podcasts or listen here:

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Raising up Pastors

It was an encouraging Sunday!  Josiah hugged the Text and faithfully preached God’s Word well.  Robbie illustrated the point of the same Text for children and held captive everyone’s attention.  It’s a wonderful thought as I reflect on my journey with these men, and others.  Raising up Pastors is no quick task, and there’s little about it that we might call simple.

“Your main point is true, but it’s not the point your Text is making,” I said to Josiah, sitting across the booth as I handed him back his sermon outline.  It was eight years and many sermons earlier.  I could see a little frustration in his eyes.  “Sure, you can step into the pulpit and preach a smattering of biblically true things, many preachers do, but it won’t be exegetical exposition.  It will be a systematic sermon, which we usually call topical.  That’s okay.  But if you do that, don’t say you are preaching on this Text, say you are preaching on that topic.”  He didn’t want to settle into reproducing what he had seen so many popular preachers do.  Instead, he committed himself to speaking God’s Word, not his own, and in a way that is governed by God’s Word, not his systematic theology or his own opinions.  I warned him, it’s challenging work. 

As a generous Pastor was giving a much younger me a chance to make mistakes, learn, and grow, I decided that if I ever became a Pastor, I would do the same.  What I didn’t realize then was how slow, difficult, and costly it is to join God’s work to raise up good Pastors.  There are no shortcuts, unless the goal is to raise up mediocre public speakers who would rather run organizations than stand in the breech and shepherd the Bride Jesus bought with his blood.   

For me, the process starts with an intern, and I’ve had a few.  Most never get past this stage of the journey, but that’s the design of any good internship.  An internship is like the second seat on a Zamboni.  It’s the end of the 1st quarter of a hockey game and out comes the Zamboni to resmooth the ice.  The driver knows what he’s doing.  Maybe he’s had 20 years of practice and in that moment, he has a job to do.  However, at many games I’ve attended, there’s a young kid on the second seat.  He hardly has any idea how the Zamboni works or how to do the work, but there he is waving to the crowd and having an exciting time, doing extraordinarily little good.  A ministry internship should serve like the second seat on a Zamboni.  It’s an opportunity to get a small look behind the scenes and see what it’s like on the ice.  To mix metaphors, an intern gets to see how the sausage is made, although rarely does he get to run the grinder.  Never do they get to drive the Zamboni, although some still try to take the wheel.  

The internship is a suitable place for someone thinking he or she might be called to ministry.  It’s a time to see what ministry could be like.  It’s a time for others to affirm the calling or suggest that God has something else in store.  It’s a place to work it out.  The expectations are low and the grace for mistakes is high. 

I’ve had a few interns over the years.  Some have rightly figured out that they should head in a different direction, and they were happy to do so.  I once had an intern who couldn’t seem to do the tasks we gave him, but we quickly discovered he was an outstanding listener, and he loved the Bible.  During his internship, he learned it wasn’t pastoral ministry he was called to but service as a Biblical Counselor.  It opened his joy, and today he’s an outstanding Biblical Counselor.  A small few will determine that pastoral ministry is the right next step, and they continue in that direction.

As soon as it’s found that there is likely some kind of ministry beyond the internship—which may not take long—it’s time to start working on a statement of theological belief (or confession) and a philosophy of ministry.  Before a person should be entrusted with any staff responsibilities or leadership, it’s important to know if his theology strongly lines up with that of the local church.  It’s one thing to affirm the beliefs for membership, it’s another altogether to have the kind of deep theological understanding needed to work with a wide variety of those members.  It’s also vital to be sure there’s alignment about what ministry is and how it should be done.  There are many different philosophies, which is fine, but it’s painful on a local body if all those approaches compete within the same church.  It’s good to know early.  In my early days of ministry growth, I learned that I had a serious theological difference with the church I was a with.  It would have been a miserable, distracting slog had I overlooked those differences and tried to serve there despite the theological disparity.  Instead, I found where I could serve more in tune with like-minded ministers, and it was not only good, but it was also healthy. 

Josiah came up through the intern path.  He was a great intern.  Then he worked hard on this personal theological statement and had a season of skyrocketing growth because of the process.  His philosophy of ministry helped ground his haphazard thoughts about ministry work.  He gained great clarity, and we discovered it was a great fit at Redeeming Life Church with me.  Robbie did not come to us as an intern.  We hired him.  Therefore, we had to examine his theology and philosophy as a part of the interviews.  When hiring someone with any level or responsibility on the staff, it is wise to get theology and philosophy worked out before making the hire, especially if you predict the new staff member having a growing responsibility.  Get ahead of the differences early before roots grow down in the wrong places. 

I’ve had many men stall out in the theology and philosophy growing season.  They struggle to get it sorted out.  They struggle to sort themselves out.  But better to stall out here than after a few years of teaching and leading God’s people with no real foundation.  There have been times when this process has led men to seek service in places that fit better.  That happened to me, so I understand it well.  Oh, but when a man’s theological creed and philosophy fit well with the church and staff team, now you have something special!  That was Josiah.  We raised funds to bring Josiah on staff and continue the journey.  Now he’s an Elder and will one day be a Senior Pastor.  He’s grounded and knows himself and his ministry.  That’s how a church should seek to raise up Pastors.

I’ve been able to bring on others in bi-vocational roles through this process.  I’ve also help men find their way and fit in places where they serve with joy.  It’s been a rewarding blessing.  It’s especially wonderful when my family and I get to sit under the skilled, grounded ministry of men and women whom we’ve had a small hand in their journey.     

It’s important that local churches look to raise up called men and women.  But this kind of work is slow.  It can be discouraging at times.  It’s costly, especially with the time and funds invested.  It can be emotionally taxing.  But when it’s right, we get a front row seat to see the working of God in growing Pastors.  And that makes it all worth it.    

— You can listen to Pastor Josiah’s sermon and Robbie’s Children’s sermon here.                   

Revelation, Chapter 1

In this episode of Salty Believer Unscripted, Josiah Walker and Bryan Catherman open to Revelation 1:1-20 and talk about the first chapter and tools for approaching the entire book. They also discuss about how to break up the book, tackle a reading plan through the book, and study well. What’s the best commentary for the book of Revelation? The book of Revelation doesn’t have to be difficult if we don’t make it harder than it needs to be. We encourage you to join this study and listen in on the conversation. Listen wherever you get your podcasts or listen here:

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An Introduction to the Book of Revelation

Josiah Walker and Bryan Catherman are starting a new series that explores the book of Revelation. Why study this book? What are the typical approaches to this book? What are the pitfalls? Is it Revelation or Revelations? What causes us to avoid this book? In this episode, they answer these questions and more. In this series, they hope to journey through the book of Revelation in such a way that brings the comfort, joy, and blessing the book should bring. The first episode serves as an introduction. Listen wherever you get podcasts or listen here:

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Can Jeff Iorg Save the SBC?

Dr. Jeff Iorg, retiring as the President of Gateway Seminary, has been nominated to lead the SBC as the Executive Committee President and CEO. Can he save the SBC? Is the SBC even savable? If Iorg can’t, nobody can. In this episode of Salty Believer Unscripted, Bryan Catherman and Josiah Walker share their thoughts about the sinking ship of the SBC and what Iorg might be able to do. Listen to this episode wherever you get podcasts or listen here:

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A Fork in the Road for the SBC

Sitting at lunch, 700 miles from home with two pastors I did not know, I was not surprised that one of their first questions was, "Why the SBC?" These two young men--one a church planter and the other a new pastor of an old church--were asking me if I thought there was any reason to consider being a part of the Southern Baptist Convention or remaining a part of the SBC. I didn't bring it up. I didn't mention that I pastor a church that presently partners with the SBC. They asked. This question is relatively typical in pastor circles these days. It's a reasonable question.

In 2020, congregants started asking, "Has the SBC gone woke?" The SBC was entangled with critical race theory (CRT) and has been arguing about untangling or tightening the knot ever since. For years, there have been questions and arguments about sexual abuse and more significant arguments about what to do about it. Race reconciliation and how to redeem the past, present, and future has been an ongoing argument for decades. The ERLC has sparked numerous in-house arguments about their involvement with elections, pro and anti-abortion legislation, and their participation in promoting Tenesse red-flag gun control laws. Who is and is not a pastor promoted a change in the Baptist Faith and Message that has done more to divide than unite, for good or bad. Questions about NABM's methodologies, partnerships, and accountability have caused sharp, ongoing disagreements. The gross mishandling of seminary funds has been a source of jokes and arguments. Top leaders spiritually disqualifying themselves hasn't helped. Neither has plagiarism. Financial accountability and transparency among the entities the SBC messengers started and funded but can't control have also been the seeds of numerous disputes. Lawsuits. More lawsuits. The lawsuit filed against the SBC by the federal government isn't helping either.

These two pastors also bemoaned issues with their local association and state convention. There was a time when pastors would be frustrated with the SBC national scene but find comfort in the work of local SBC partnerships. Those days are waning, too.

In many cases, the local associations and conventions--among what is often praised as a locally autonomous organization--have terminated autonomy by overly partnering with the national scene for one reason or another. And if they haven't partnered, many seem to have other issues. Lack of vision, lack of innovation in a post-pandemic world, and mission drift are often sources of contention and division.

These struggles have caused pastor and church involvement to decline. Furthermore, sending funds to the Cooperative Program is hard when nobody's cooperating. Efforts to "fix" the local organizations have become another source of disagreement, just as complicated as the disagreements circling the efforts to "fix" the SBC nationally.

Acts 15:36-41 speaks deeply into this matter.

Paul and Barnabas had a great run. Together, they helped equip and train up the church in Antioch. Their first missionary journey was fruitful. They were instrumental in the outcome of the First Jerusalem Council, and the Apostles chose them to take the decision back to the saints. These guys were a power team with a praiseworthy, successful ministry history. But then, a sharp disagreement about how they would move forward arose. How would this be resolved?

It's no small thing that just before this passage, Acts 15:1-35 deals with a serious disagreement and dispute. That issue had much to do with how the Old Testament relates to the New Testament and how Judaism is associated with Christianity, all playing out in the necessity of circumcision. What a severe disagreement that could have easily split the Church! In that case, the dispute was positively resolved unless you were on the side of the Circumcision Party. Now, what would happen between Paul and Barnabas? How would their dispute end?

As it turned out, the disagreement between Paul and Barnabas ended with a split. Barnabas took Mark one way, and Paul took Silas another. What this a positive or negative outcome? Commentators are at odds, but it's clear God's work continued, even if it didn't look like it always looked. There are times when Christians will do ministry, but it may be better that they don't do it together. When the disagreement becomes so distracting from the work, something needs to change.

The SBC is at a fork. Some will continue along the path together, and others will take the divergent trail. Both options are okay. What's not okay is dragging on the sharp disagreements for so long that the work of ministry stalls to nothing. What's not okay is extending the dispute about how we do ministry to include an assault on the choices that churches need to make to continue serving our Lord, one way or another.

The SBC could have many fewer churches. The Corporate program could have substantially less money. But if all the churches stay Kingdom-minded, gospel work will continue in fruitful ways. Churches that no longer share funds with the SBC will deploy those funds in other ways and with other partnerships. Chances are good that churches that separate from the SBC will begin doing more ministry work and give more money to gospel work because they will no longer be so frustrated or discouraged by a dysfunctional partnership. Stalled ministry may move forward once again. And when there's less disagreement within the SBC, the SBC may return to doing healthy ministry, even on a small scale. This is okay, even more than okay. It's good.

I know my answer to the question posed by those two pastors. I also know my answer doesn't need to be anyone else's answer. Autonomous churches need to make their determinations autonomously. They need to choose if and how they partner with the SBC, if and how much they give to the voluntary funding program, and how they feel about it. Autonomous churches must be okay with other autonomous churches doing things differently unless they don't care about autonomy. If we're going to move past this challenging season, we need to look past our disagreements, make our determinations, and choose the path. Then, maybe we'll get back to serving our Lord well.

The Shorter Catechism Explained from Scripture by Thomas Vincent

Bryan Catherman recommends Thomas Vincent's The Shorter Catechism Explained from Scripture, and he explains how to use it and get much from this Puritan Paperback. This book was first published in 1674. Banner of Truth originally republished it in 1980 and then reprinted in with a new cover and typeset in 2021.

Find more book recommendations like this one on the SaltyBeliever.com book recommendation page.

Utah Christian Resource Center Site Visit

Join Josiah Walker, Bryan Catherman, and Robbie Tschorn as they visit and tour the Utah Christian Resource Center. This is a wonderful new resource for learning to defend your faith, learning more about the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, learning Bible history, and so much more. Listen to the guy’s impression as they visit and record on site to document their experience. Listen to Salty Believer Unscripted wherever you get podcasts or listen here:

Learn more about the Utah Christian Resource Center here and watch the video below:

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Concluding Thoughts on a CST Workshop

Josiah Walker and Bryan Catherman discuss their concluding thoughts on a Charles Simeon Trust workshop on this episode of Salty Believer Unscripted. After talking with Brett Ricley, Robert Kinney, and being on-site, they share what they’re thinking and what they hope to see in the future. They plan to attend more workshops and they’ve love to see one in Utah. Listen to this episode of Salty Believer Unscripted wherever you get podcasts or listen here:

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On Site for the Leader's Day at a CST Workshop (with Daniel)

Daniel Catherman, Josiah Walker, and Bryan Catherman observed the leader’s training day before the Charles Simeon Trust workshop in Southern California. They share their thoughts on-site at the end of a long day. What goes into a workshop? How do the leaders and apprentices prepare for the workshop? They answer these questions and many more on this episode. Listen wherever you get podcasts or listen here:

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CST Workshops with Robert Kinney (Part 2)

Join Josiah Walker and Bryan Catherman as they chat with Robert Kinney, the director of the Charles Simeon Trust. In this episode, they ask Robert more questions about the CST Workshops and many are the questions you were thinking to ask but they had little to do with what you need to know about attending a Workshop. Who are some of the heavy-hitters who have instructed at workshops? What’s the craziest things to happen at workshops? What are workshops like in other countries? How many chickens are unhelpful at a workshops. Robert answers these questions and many more. Listen to this episode of Salty Believer Unscripted wherever you get podcasts or listen here:

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CST Workshops with Robert Kinney (Part 1)

In this episode of Salty Believer Unscripted, Josiah Walker and Bryan Catherman chat with Robert Kinney, the Director of Ministries at the Charles Simeon Trust. Robert joined the conversation to discuss what to expect at a CST Workshop. How do they work? Why attend one? What should first-time participants expect? He answers these questions and many more. Listen to this episode wherever you get podcasts or listen here:

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Brett Ricley's Take on the CST Workshop

Josiah Walker and Bryan Catherman had a zoom meeting with Brett Ricley about the Charles Simeon Trust workshop. He’s attended two in the past, so the guys wanted to get his take. What will the workshop be like? What should we expect? How did it go for Brett? What would Brett change or improve if he could? These are the kinds of questions they ask and he answers. Listen to this episode of Salty Believer Unscripted wherever you listen to podcasts or listen here:

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The Charles Simeon Trust: An Introduction

Join Josiah Walker and Bryan Catherman as they discuss the Charles Simeon Trust workshop. They are headed to a workshop on preaching Epistles, specifically 2 Timothy, and they thought they’d podcast their experience. In this episode, they share what they’re excited about and what’s making them nervous. In the coming episodes, they’ll chat with someone who’s already attended some workshops, and they’ll also talk with Robert Kinney from Charles Simeon Trust. They also hope to record an episode or two on site. Whether you’re a preacher or not, this series will give you a good look into these workshops, but also some of what goes into preparing sermons. Listen to this episode wherever you get podcasts or listen here:

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